tv MSNBC News Live MSNBC October 22, 2009 3:00pm-4:00pm EDT
today's crossing the line, did minnesota's mascot go too far by mocking a pregame prayer? goldie the go fer, hats off to thee or apology required? the big picture starts right now. good afternoon, everybody, good afternoon, tamron, i'm david shuster live in washington. >> i'm tamron hall live in new york. the big picture right now the federal reserve and the obama administration's so-called payczar delivered a one-two punch today to stop the kind of reckless actions that led to the financial crisis last year. this afternoon, the fed proposed for the first time to police pay policies at the banks. the fed would not actually set compensation but would review and could veto pay policies that encourage too much risk taking by executives, traders or loan officers. the proposal would cover thousands of banks, including many that did receive some of your money in the bailout. the plan could take effect december.
kenneth fineberg finished a news conference yes ordered dramatic cuts in the pay of top executives of the firms that received the most taxpayer money. the orders are seven companies, citigroup, bank of america, insurance giant aig, jeep motors, chrysler, chrysler financial and gmac. the companies received a total of almost $350 billion in government support and this year's salaries at those firms will be cut an average of 90% from what they got last year and total compensation, including bonuses, will drop by an average of 50%. perks will also be restricted. and any executive who wants private jets, limos and country club memberships in excess of $25,000 has to get the government's permission. within the past hour, president obama praised fineberg and pressed for even more action. >> i believe he has taken an important step forward today in curbing the influence of executive compensation on wall street while still allowing these companies to succeed and prosper. but more work needs to be done,
which is why i urge the senate to pass legislation that will give company shareholders a voice to on the pay packages awarded to their executive and i urge congress to continue moving forward on financial reform that will help prevent the crisis we saw last fall from happening again. >> nbc's mike viqueira joins us from the white house. as the president presses for action, mike, started reporting on this yesterday and people wondering where the teeth is or will be in this kind of action and you heard the president pushing congress for the teeth. >> certainly significant cults to the top executive and the firms you mentioned. others pointed thought is largely optical for public relations purposes, other companies, several other companies that benefitted from the t.a.r.p., have since pay it had back no such restrictions on them. there's also another $100 billion out there, you mentioned covered $350 billion, those seven companies. so far, of the $700 billion in the t.a.r.p. about 454, $460 billion has been spent.
the president careful to say we do not disparage wealth in this country but says it offends our values when executives of big firms reward themselves with these big bonuses, tamron. and there is a lot of outrage, a lot of indignation the way this happened, with particular in regards to aig, chrysler, gm, all of these other companies, would not be even viable today if it hadn't been for the taxpayer. >> mike, you have people wondering is this something the white house was pushing, the president or the payczar, fineberg, really trying to make a stand in this battle to give wall street under control what is it? >> the white house very ex-bless sive as recently as a couple hours ago when press secretary robert gibbs was asked that very question. he said this was fineberg's call, the white house was not notified this was going to happen. aft aer all, fineberg is an independent payczar, independent of the white house, to make these decision buys himself. they said fineberg did not even notify the president that he was going to step forward with this of course, the president taking the occasion in the east room,
an event about veterans affairs to endorse what fineberg had done, tamron. the growing pressure from washington on the wall street firms. under the fed plan, the 28 biggest banks would have to develop their own plans to make sure compensation doesn't encourage excessive risk take thanked includes firms not covered by the pay czar's cuts today. among them, goldman sachs, morgan stan labor day jpmorgan chase which received tens of billions of loans and loan guarantees from the government but paid the money back. now, according to the wall journal, goldman sachs, where profits have soared, is on track to pay a record $21 in bonuses and compensation this year. jpmorgan chase, $19 billion and morgan stanley on track to pay $16 billion, even though profits fell 91% last quarter. joining us now brady dennis, financial reporter of the "washington post."
brady, just so viewers are clear, the reason these bonuses are so high, the reason the government is trying to target this is because people are being rewarded not necessarily because of new prod dungs or revenue they are generating but simply because of the revenue they are generating based on the risks that they are taking? >> yeah, i think that's right in some sense. you mentioned -- someone mentioned just a few moments ago about the optics of this and here you have firms who took a lot of taxpayer money over the last year and now back to turning pretty significant profits. i think people are worebied about how that looks and what message it sends. >> concern about encouraging the banks, don't do something, don't rein in the bonuses, people are getting paid for taking excessive risks, then you're right back into the situation a year ago, people were taking all kinds of risks with mortgage-backed securities. there was a melt down and that fueled the financial problems a year ago.
exactly, you see a parallel track what is going on in congress with the regulatory reform proposals that are working their way through to sort of try to rein in some of those abuses that took place a year ago. so these sort of going on parallel to what we see today with ken fineberg and the executive compensation numbers. >> president obama referred to his effort to get congress to pass what is essentially transparency on these bonus packages to let the board s essentially vote every year. is that tied in with the other reg reforms or way to separate it out in case the wall street firms are able to kill the other reg reforms, they can at least get this piece of it through? >> actually, i didn't hear what the president said but there are a number of efforts, both, you know, in congress to flesh out some reforms on executive pay and make it so share hold verse more of a say on that, that there's -- the corporate governance that comes with that, with board members having more to say on that. and also, you know, i think ken
fineberg, although he only has influence over seven companies right now, is trying to send his own message on how companies who don't fall under his rule should act. >> brady dennis with the "washington post." thank you very much. we appreciate it. >> yep. tamron, we have breaking news and intriguing news about a northwest flight last night that eventually landed in minneapolis? >> we have some breaking news. reports of a federal investigation into a northwest airlines plane that apparently overshot its destination by 150 miles. nbc's tom costello covers aviation, of course, for us. he is live in washington. tom what do you know about this? >> reporter: the faa and the ntsb are investigating this. this is what happened. this was wednesday at about 6:56 central time. northwest flight 188 was headed from san diego to minneapolis. it apparently lost radio contact with the tower for better than an hour. in fact, nearly an hour and 15 or 20 minutes and during that period, it overshot minneapolis airport by 150 miles, 147
passengers on board, flying 37,000 feet. the crew tells investigators that they were in a heated discussion about policy at the airline and they lost situational awareness. investigators are looking into whether, in fact the crew may have dozed off while they were in the cockpit. nonetheless, 8:14 central time opinion, after they overflew minneapolis, air traffic control managed to get ahold of the crew, turned around, made a landing at minneapolis-st. paul, they were interviewed on the ground by minneapolis police and the fbi. now the cockpit voice recorder is on its way to washington, d.c. for a thorough analysis by the ntsb. the faa clearly will also be concerned about what happened in the cockpit. we tried to reach delta northwest for a comment. we have not yet heard from them but the ntsb confirms is launching an investigation. by the way, everybody landed safely no injuries. >> nbc's tom costello, thank you very much, tom.
an autopsy sunder way on the body that police believe is that of a missing florida girl, somer thompson disappeared monday as she walked home from school. authorities say they were able to tentatively identify the body found in a georgia landfill based on clothing a birth mark. right now, police say they are searching for a killer. they have already questioned 70 registered sex offenders in the area. records is show 161 offenders live in a five-mile radius around somer's home in orange park, that. there is a child killer on the loose that's why we are going to catch this person and bring him to justice. i fear -- i fear for our community until we bring this person n. >> nbc's mark porter joins us now from orange park, florida. mark, you were saying yesterday that authorities did not have any leads in this. has anything changed over the last 24 hours? >> reporter: job veryiously, something changed, they found the body of the girl.
that was a major break in the investigation. they had nology up to that point and that changed everything, went from search and recould have troy a full-blown homicide investigation which is under way now, the sheriff and his officers are promising that they are working 24/7 to try to make sure that the person or persons responsible for this horrible crime are brought to justice. that autopsy could be very, very important. officers are hoping from that to determine not only the cause of death but also to see whether there's any evidence, physical evidence on the child's body, perhaps the dna from the killer on her body, on her clothing or nearby. the search at the dump site where the body was found is also considered critical. there, officers are looking for evidence that maybe could tell them where the child's body was placed here in orange park, perhaps in a dumpster before it was picked up and carted away going to a garbage distribution center and then being moved up to that landfill in georgia. so, they are trying to back track using that information. the fact that the officers here
decided early on tuesday to chase the garbage trucks leaving this town, going to that dump in georgia was considered critical by the sheriff. he said that enabled them to find the child's body early in the investigation. if they had not done that, they may have never found that body, which could be buried under tons of garbage. as it was, the officers sifted through hundreds of tons of garbage before they found the child. meanwhile, parents and teachers here, as you can imagine, are very, very concerned, with a child killer still on the loose. today at the school where somer thompson left and then disappeared on monday, parents today were seen walking their children in groups, helped by teachers, very, very great concern right now until this case is brought to a close with an arrest. back to you. >> how long will it take them -- how long will it take them if they do get dna off of the child's body, how long would it take them to then make the analysis and a comparison with their existing dna database of existing sex offenders?
>> i don't know the answer to that but all i know is everything is racheted up, trying to do this as fast as possible. the fbi is handling that part of the investigation. their lab is -- would be employed. we don't know the timeframe but all we know is that every effort is made to bring this to a close quickly because that killer is still out there killer or killers still out there, and trying to bring those people in. mark potter in orange park, florida. mark, as always we appreciate it. coming up, more fighting words from dick cheney. the former vice president blasting president obama for "dithering" on afghanistan. plus, a massive raid on the most violent mexican drug cartel that operates here in the united states. will the raid do anything to stop some of the drug war on our southern border? the university of minnesota's college mascot goes by goldie the go fer. he was caught, some say, mocking a player's prayer. is it crossing the line? we will have more. (announcer) it's what doctors recommend most for headaches.
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election authorities in afghanistan began delivering ballots with help from the united nations today. 2 it is all part of the rampup to the run office election november 7th between hamid karzai and his challenger, abdullah abdullah. karzai agreed to the runoff after the election commission threw out one-third of the votes he received after claims of widespread fraud and ballot stuffing. former vice president dick cheney has surfaced again to accuse president obama of "deathering" on a new strategy in afghanistan. >> tamron, last night in a speech to a conservative group called keeping the flame, cheney said president obama is putting american troops and the country in danger.
cheney defended torture, attacked president obama's decision to scale back the missile shield in europe and suggested president obama is scared to make a decision. >> having announced his afghanistan strategy in march, president obama now seems afraid to make a decision and unable to provide his commander on the ground with the troops he needs to complete the mission. it's time for president obama to make good on his promise. the white house must stop dithering while america's armed forces are in danger. >> today, white house press saek ter robert gibbs noted it was the bush administration, not president obama, that took its eye off of afghanistan. >> i think it was pretty safe to say that the vice president was, for seven years, not focused on afghanistan. even more curious given the fact that an increase in troops sat on desks in this white house,
including the vice president's, for more than eight months. a resource request filled by president obama in march. >> we are joined now by an msnbc contributor and "newsweek." we had people saying cheney shouldn't have weighed in, should have butted out to. one republican said it was so bizarre for cheney to be making this argument and noted that cheney didn't look well that maybe there's something medically wrong with the vice president or his emotional state. do you know of anything that's happening with him? >> no. he has obviously had plenty of health problems in the past. you are right, just in that brief clip you showed, he didn't sound at his best but certainly the words were vintage dick cheney. >> what do you think he is after here, assuming of a rational, healthy mind. what is he after by being after this? >> the same thing he was after all year in the multiple speeches and comments he has
made attacking president obama's policy, vindication, he sees barack obama's election last year and platform he ran on, repudiation of eight years of the bush/cheney administration as a rejection of the policies that they adopted and cheney seems to be an a crusade to show that he was right and everybody else was wrong. >> he is right and everyone else is wrong, is he -- is it selective am niche schaadt last eight years of what happened there and that even the troops on the ground believe that it was the forgotten war by the bush administration? >> right. is very hard for dick cheney to take this argument too far because, after all, if afghanistan is a mess and most everybody now agree it is is a mess, it didn't become so in the -- in the nine months of the obama administration.
clearly the problem was there at the time president obama took office. one thing that cheney didn't mens in his speech last night, there was a national intelligence estimate at the end of last year that found afghanistan was in a downward -- downward spiral. that was under the bush administration. now, he is right that the -- as things began to deteriorate last year, the bush white house undertook a review and comprehensive review and reported on the need to do something about afghanistan when owe obama took office that begs the question of how did it it get to become such a mess? >> also very curious use of words in his remarks, michael, when he said that the administration was afraid to do something. as a woman, of course, i read in all kind of match cheese mow with this language, you are afraid to come out with a decision, almost taunting there.
>> very clearly, the cheney strategy to a great extent the republican party strategy, key picked obama weak on national defense, not muscular enough to address the country. it is important remembering this was karl rove's line of attack for the entire bush administration on democrats, how republicans kept control of the congress in 2002 and in very -- in very many ways, was able to push through its -- the congressional authorization to invade iraq, they put democrats on the defensive, if you dare to vote against this we are going to show you as we can, we will show you as not strong enough to defend the country against evil terrorists. so, that basic line of attack is now we are just hearing echoes of what we have heard for many
years before. whether it is going to be as effective now against president obama, given the mounting public questioning about the war in afghanistan remains to be seen there is a lot of public discontent out there about whether we should be getting deeper involved, more deeply involved in afghanistan, risking more american casualties or not and it makes the politics very dicey. >> there are a number of lawmakers, democrats and republicans, whoer is informed the mail ter who argue there should be more troops sent to afghanistan. vice president cheney got, what is it four, five deferments that kept him out of serving in vietn vietnam? what has been the political reaction today to vice president chainny essentially sucking up the air, the oxygen in this room on the debate? people aren't talking about john mccain's position today. and the white house is talking about dick cheney, a man reviled so in so many parts of this
country. >> look, the white house loves a, if they can depict this as barack obama against dick cheney. cheney's poll numbers are about as low as you can get. i think from cheney's perspective, they think they have got the better of the issue of this, if obama doesn't grant general mcchrystal's request for more troops, he is going to be vulnerable. we don't know about that as i said before, the politics of this are very dicey, but it's the issue, the merits of the issue versus the political matchup. and i think the white house would much prefer this to be a -- about barack obama versus dick cheney than the specifics of the argument itself. >> almost wonder if there was somebody at the white house secretly encouraging vice president cheney to take the stage at every opportunity. thanks, we appreciate t thanks for coming on. up next, as if they have not suffered enough, the travoltas face a mistrial in the case against the men accused of
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welcome back. you are on msnbc, the big picture. >> time for the world view of stories making international headlines. first up to south waziristan, pakistan. the military released this new video of troops fighting the taliban. the military is in the sixth day of a ground and air offensive against the taliban in the rugged province along the afghan border it is considered a critical test of pakistan's campaign against islamic extremists on attacks inside the
country. somalia, militants fired off mortgagers in the capital sparking battles that killed a least 24 people. the mortar slammed into somal somalia's airport as the president was boarding a plane. the president was not injured. somalia's capital sees nearly daily attacks as an inis sur jent group with ties to al qaeda tries to overthough the government. in the bahamas, a judge ordered a mistrial in the extortion case involving john travolta a new trial will likely not start until next year. the mistrial comes after a politician announced one of the defendants would be freed, giving the impeers are enof an improper leak from the jury room the defendants are accused of demanding $25 million from travolta to keep them from releasing private information about the death of travolta's son. just ahead, the largest raid ever on a mexican drug cartel here in the states. more than 1,000 people arrested. an incredible amount of drugs and money recovered, what if anything will it do to stop the drug violence in our country's southern border? our continuing series on a
woman's nation, the rising stars to watch for in 2010. we will talk to nbc news political reporter, chuck todd. [ female announcer ] arthritis targets your body where it's weak. where it's vulnerable. ♪ tylenol arthritis works with your body to block the pain, without interfering with certain high blood pressure medicines like aleve sometimes can. ♪ so you don't just feel better, you feel better knowing doctors recommend tylenol more than any other brand of pain reliever. ♪ ♪ ♪ when it comes to protecting the things you care about... ...leave nothing to chance.
with 50% more pepperoni. taste. believe. it's not delivery, it's digiorno. in the big picture, there was a pretty big announcement at the u.s. justice department today. attorney general eric holder says a series of drug raids across the country has led to the arrest of more than 300 alleged drug dealers in 38 cities covering 19 states, from florida to california. >> over the last two days acre rests have been carried out in 19 states and can he we continued to make additional arrests as we speak. this unprecedented, coordinated united states law enforcement action is the largest ever undertaken against a mexican drug cartel. >> the operation is part of a long-running effort to try to stop drugs and weapons from being transported from mexico to the united states. over the last four years, led to
1200 arrests and seizure of more than $32 million in drugs. clint van zant is a former profiler and author of "facing down evil," you talk about $32 million in drugs seized, feels like a drop in the bucket compared to how much is getting across. >> a drop in the bucket, david, when you consider that the drugs that are sold by these cartels run about $25 billion. that is the amount going. and of the five drug cartels in mexico, the really big cartels two of them alone count about 100,000, what they call soldiers. the mexican army only has 130,000 total troops. so that is a country literally fighting for its lives. >> what do you think of the raids across the country today? >> we have got to do them. what is happening, drugs are just flowing in, we have got our problems, too. guns in america are going down south of the border and then those guns are being used against the police in the
military, so, we have got our act to get together here in the united states, too, but again, those drugs are coming fast and furious and as good as these arrests are, there is hundreds and had hundrundreds of other c waiting. american cities are affected, kidnappings, drug sales so many things going on, law enforcesome just overwhelmed. for example, rick perry, the governor in texas, has asked for at least 1,000 more federal troops to help man his board we are mexico. >> i got to ask you about the news yesterday, another arrest of a home grown terrorist, series of people who have u.s. passports now showing up. how concerned is the fbi about the threat of terrorism from people who are born and raised in the united states who somehow have these now muslim sympathies or extremist sympathies? >> i think this is an absolute major threat. i mean this is not like the days of 9/11 where we had the saudis flying planes into buildings. what they have learned and how
they -- al qaeda and other organizations have improved is that they are recruiting right here in homeland usa, getting passport-carrying u.s. citizens who are becoming jihadist type of individuals who are traveling overseas, receiving training. and when they get over there, they are told, hey we don't need you fighting in somalia or iraq or iran. we want you to go become to america and carry out acts. dave, people are minimizing, they are saying, open, this is the gang that couldn't shoot straight. well, had we grabbed the 9/11 hijackers the day before, we might have minimized that, too. as the old story goes, we have to be right 100% of the time. the bad guys, the terrorists, have to be lucky once. like the guy in texas last month who thought he put a truck load of explosives into a building. as he sat there and flipped the switch with his colleagues, turned out to be fbi undercover agents. what if we hadn't found him? >> hmm. interesting stuff. unfortunately, the terror watch list, foreign-sounding names
won't work in this case if it is a home-grown terrorist. clint van zandt, thanks so much we appreciate it. today in our special week-long series a woman's nation, we will look at the women to watch in the 2010 elections. >> this week we told but three women running for governor, kay bailey hutchison of texas, alex sink of there and meg whitman of california. if any win this he could be possible presidential or vice presidential candidates come 2012. many other names to watch as well as. nbc news political drerngt and white house correspondent chuck todd joins us live. an incredible list of women, chuck, quite a diverse group as well. it is. in many ways, this is the biggest chance the republican party has had to have their own version of the year of the woman when it comes to senate races. new hampshire, the attorney general, actually reappointed that position by a d you have sue loudoun, the former state party chair in nevada,
challenging harry reid. republicans feel very good about that linda mcmahon, the wife of vince mcmahon of world wrestling fame in connecticut, she is spending her own money. you also have jane norton, a former state attorney general in the state of colorado. again, somebody they hope. we have talked all week about how the gender gap is back and how the republican party hasn't had a good answer for in a generation. now, there's some interesting women to watch on the democratic side, mentioned alex sink earlier this week. robin karn nah happen is probably the most well-known woman trying to become a u.s. is senator in missouri, famous last name, of course, both of her late father was governor, elected to the u.s. senate posthumously. her mother was appointed to that
position. >> we have a graphic of american politics, 73 congress women, 7 cabinet members, 6 six goffs, 17 u.s. senators, you mentioned, robin carnahan and linda mcmahon stand out to me, for so long, to breakthrough, you did have to have a famous last name. we interviewed linda mcmahon, the last thing she wanted to be was certainly the wife of this celebrity. she was carving out her own identity. >> i will say this i think we are in -- this is a new generation of women politicians. for the last 40 years, most women who had success on the statewide level or in congress, it was thanks to a famous last name, whether a father, a husband, whatever. we are in a new generation of women politicians, seeing women win and successful in their own right. let's be realistic here, those numbers that you just broke down, over 50% of the electorate is women. we are at 17% of the united
states senate is female. it is less than what do we have, not even 25% of the u.s. house of representatives is made up of women. it is -- it is actually not an impressive set of numbers. it is one of those things that you do expect that once -- and what happens is it is like grass roots, when you start seeing more women elected to state legislative office to city councils, to county commissions, that will start trickling up. that is where it has to start. you see some women's groups nonpartisan or bipartisan trying to recruit more candidates to run locally so they can have a trickle-up effect. >> interesting. >> people wonder what you might look like if you shaved your goatee. there is that opportunity because of a bet that you and jake tapper had over the phillies dodgers, if the phillies won, you would shave it. if the dodgers one, jake would have to grow one. the phillies are on their way to
the world series. >> yes, they are. xfrmgts you about something robert gibbs said at the briefing today. watch. >> chuck is anywhere out there listening, we can solve your problem right here and i would be happy -- please pass this on, happy to you know, use some space here there used to be, many moons ago, a white house barber, that office now occupied by the white house photographer, but i'm sure that they would move the fancy computers out and we could get a little space. chuck, i have a feeling would you look better without your goatee than jake would look with one, but what are you going to do? >> at this point, i promised our friends at a certain morning show called the "today" show that we will -- we will have a final answer for you tomorrow morning. so you know, we got to drag this out. remind people there is a charitable opt out here, the only why i agreed to the bet. i will say this, my friend mr. tapper, he didn't have as much
on the line and i kept saying you got to put more skin in the game, brother, than what i was literally putting in, a lot more skin, a second chin, all sorts of things. we shall see. two very fine charities that we both said that we would contribute to should we choose not to mess with our chins. >> one of the best teases for the "today" show, we will all be watching what will chuck todd do tomorrow, on the "today" show. chuck todd, nbc news white house correspondent, also political director. chuck, thanks for playing along. >> you got t. up next, house speaker nancy pelosi saying flat out the public option will be in the bill she brings to the house floor. >> the question is will that help or hurt the fight for reform? it is in our making the case, coming up. (announcer) we understand. you want faster ground shipping.
the public option is at the heart of the health care reform and lawmakers are split over whether to include it in the final bill. >> tamron, a few democratic senators trying to resolve the controversy are floating around a compromise, including one being the opt out public option. this proposal, the public option would start in the bill, be available nationwide but individual states, either through their legislature or the governor, could essentially decide to opt out and not participate. one of the senate's newest advocates of the public option opt out is democratic senator jay rockefeller from west virginia. you recall that he pushed a very aggressive public option during these hearings you are looking at now senate finance committee hearings from a few weeks ago but now he says he thinks the opt out option is a good way to pick up support for mod the ras. house speaker nancy pelosi repeated her push for a robust public option. >> we will have a bill that will go to the floor and it will have a public option in it. and there is support in our caucus to do that i have said that over and over again and i stand by it the question is what
form does that take? and there are other issues. >> meanwhile, the house republican pry nority leader, john boehner who once said the public option is as popular as a garlic milk shake is calling the democrats' plan a government takeover. >> the republicans are going to continue to oppose the government takeover of health care. now, it's nothing short of that you look at their bill, that's what it s at the end of the day the american people want us to work in a bipartisan way to fix our current system so that it works better for more americans. >> here to make their case on the opt out public option plan, democratic strategist ari mel beer, former national staffer on john kerry's presidential campaign and conservative blogger matt lewis, blogs for politics daily.com and town hall.com. latest poll, 57% of americans support the public option, what is wrong with letting states decide this, state by state? >> you have got your polls, david, let me point to you a gallup poll out today which
shows the majority of americans believe if democrats have their way, the quality of health care will go down and the cost will go up. but look, i think you do make a good point in the sense that nancy pelosi is putting harry reid in a very difficult position. she is arguing there has to be a robust public option. i think harry reid would like the other idea, which is maybe to allow the states to decide. the problem here is when you allow the states to decide that's good for democrats. it helps unite liberal democrats and moderate democrats but you risk losing the only republican you have, olympia snowe. and so the problem is that allowing states to opt in an opt out, good for the democratic party, except you can't call it a bipartisan bill. >> not sure about that olympia snowe has said she is open to the idea of the opt out, she is the one who has this idea of a trigger. any case, a ari mri mel beer, l like they will get the public option in the house. democrats willing to accept
something a little less robust? >> i think you need something that speaks to the poll you spoke about this overwhelming public support for a public option and for competition in the industry. agree with my conservative friends and think we have to keep an our eye on t you need the competition where weather it is mandatory, some states involved, some other states not involved is superior to just giving away the store that is why again we need sthooe overwhelming public support for it. i don't care which republicans vote for it i care it is a good bill, the policy is good. senator snowe obviously showed leadership there in breaking with the harder line conservatives she has previously worked w the point is whether we have a good policy with competition that delivers health care, not how many people in washington can put ds and rs by it that doesn't really matter. >> isn't it hard, just a large philosophical debate? the democrats believe people should not be able to pay bonus
money, executive salaries, promotions, make a profit off of our health care, republicans believe, no, no government intervention whatsoever, not only a private marketplace but should be exempt from any -- should be excer exempt from thec option. >> i want to make the point again, the gallup poll out today shows the majority of americans believe if the democrats pass this bill that the quality of health care will go down and the costs will go up. so, it is not like public opinion is on one side, depends on the poll and the way the questions are asked but to answer your question, david, yes, i think there are fundamental differences in the way -- good people, nice people, good people can disagree on this issue. it fundamentally comes down with how you view government and and make decisions with their doctors that government
shouldn't be involved. democrats think that government should be involved and should be between you and your doctor. we would argue that's a bad idea. >> can i jump in there? >> go ahead. >> i understand what's matt saying and the way he puts it i think is fairly accurate. but i would contrast that to what congressman boehner said, which is inaccurate, which is a lie. he spoke earlier in the clip about a government takeover, and that's false. again, that's the falsehoods that have strakted this distrac debate. competition is not a takeover any more than having a massachusetts fund from the state or having harvard and private business schools. we see that model obviously around the government. people don't talk about a government takeover of higher education. in fact, many people are appreciative that you have the government, state and federal, involved. >> talk about public schools and public swimming pools, meaning nobody will want to go to them, at least a lot of them, that frankly aren't that good. >> i don't know where you went to school. but i went to a great school, by
the way. i went to public high school. >> i went to clarion -- >> let's be absolutely far when we talk about this. yes, there are fears that a government bureaucrat might stand between you and your doctor. but as the situation exists right now, there's an insurance industry bureaucrat who oftentimes stands between you and your doctor under the current system. in any case, ari, matt lewis. great debate as always. thanks for coming on. appreciate it. and for a complete guide to health care reform check out health care.msnbc.com. find out what's fact and what's fiction in the complicated debate. up next -- crossing the line. a college mascot mocks an opposing player's pregame prayer. and later in the show, why michael jordan's son may not be allowed to wear his dad's famous shoes. to stay in tune with life after 50, i switched to a complete multivitamin with more.
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are there. but a clip making the rounds online mixes a player, a mascot and of all things, religion. after the penn state nittany lions took the field saturday, defensive lineman jerome hayes stopped in the end zone and knelt in prayer. minnesota golden gopher mascot took a knee in front of hayes and then appeared to offer his hand and the player was done, even crossing himself. twin cities.com reports university officials spoke to goldie gopher about the incident but it didn't suspend him. university of minnesota spokesperson dan welters said, quote, it certainly was not his intent to offend anyone or trivialize their religion. but several penn state alumni were furious. these people took to the blogs and other places to vent their anger. but nittany lions, that's a penn state blog, jerome hayes is saying he's not offended even though he didn't shake the hand or dpret tgreet the mascot in a
pleasant fashion. what do you think? did goldie the gopher go too far? what do you think? it's almost 4:00 on the east coast. we're just a few minutes away from a police update on the somer thompson case. the little girl's body was found in a landfill yesterday in georgia. police in looking are looking at the 161 registered sex offenders who live in her neighborhood. also, dick cheney is accusing president obama of dithering and being afraid to make a decision on afghanistan, even though haven't cheney and president bush ignored afghanistan to a certain extent. how will all of this play out politically for the white house and for the republican party? plus, bands raging from pearl jam to the roots are protesting from the possible use of their songs at guantanamo bay. the songs were not played for entertainment. they were played at ear-splitting decibels intended to inflict pain on the detainees. we'll have more on that. this is "the big picture" on msnbc. i'm here to find out why over a million people
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